La Jollans complain about airport noise

An issue historically griped by Point Lomans

La Jolla residents are the latest to complain about jetliner noise from the airport. However, their formal complaint to the La Jolla Town Council tonight (February 9) has been removed from the agenda because the issues of crime and homelessness will take up too much time, according to Dr. Matthew Price, a cardiologist who is among the leaders of the resistance group.

"However, a member of the [La Jolla Town Council] will make a brief statement regarding recognizing the airplane noise issue, ask attendees to sign petitions requesting relief from airplane noise, and encourage La Jollans to attend the Airport Noise Authority Committee meeting on Wednesday, February 15, at 4 p.m.," he said in a memo today to members of the group. (The noise authority meeting will be on the second floor of 3225 North Harbor Drive.) Price recommends that group members attend tonight's meeting from 5:30 to 7 p.m. at the La Jolla Recreation Center.

The noise started in November of last year, according to Cameron Volker, a leader of the group. She says the Federal Aviation Administration is talking out of both sides of its mouth: "First they say that nothing has changed," and then officials explained that a satellite-based system tells jets which patterns to land in, and this could explain the noise. She says "a couple hundred" people have signed the petition, and that there should be a thousand names on it by February 15.

The noise hits all the La Jolla neighborhoods, she says. There are other San Diego neighborhoods that voice similar complaints. Historically, Point Loma, which is right next to the airport, complains the loudest and most often.

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Cloudy days, such as we've recently experienced, exacerbate the noise issue by reflecting sound that normally would be directed upward. Thus we have the normal noise plus the reflected noise, which may echo multiple times between cloud and ground, and we have the illusion of much more noise even though the source is the same as on a quiet sunny day.

The solution to this may exist in a not-yet patented system under consideration by certain local investors. Hang on to your hats, we may have an answer sooner than you think!

I wish the group success - certainly any invention which could reduce noise from aircraft would be valuable and would help society as a whole.

ImJustABill: Agreed. It would be great. I hope this is not a promotion for a coming initial public offering of stock. Best, Don Bauder

swell: I don't know enough to gainsay your explanation. Nor do I know enough to recommend an investment with these local inventors. (Ethically, I cannot invest in anything based in San Diego County -- and in certain stocks based elsewhere, such as PG&E and SoCal Edison -- so I must sit on the sidelines while you get filthy rich.) Best, Don Bauder

Flapper: "Exacerbating?" Try "exasperating." (I realize you were kidding.) Best, Don Bauder

Thanks for kerrecting my speling errer.

JustWondering: It appears you think it is a tangled bureaucracy. Best, Don Bauder

The FAA recent hearings on departure routes from Lindbergh Field are allegedly driven by 'efficiency' motivations. What's really driving this is airline profit, not efficiency and certainly not safety for those near departure routes and waypoints. The FAA says nothing changed, but as a Point Loma resident I can tell you more planes are turning south much earlier and flying over more populated areas, rather than flying out over the Mission Bay channel to the Pacific Ocean. The same deviation is more than likely happening on northerly departures too.

As San Diego found out on that fateful September 25, 1978, morning, descent vectors into San Diego are dangerous. Accent vectors, and waypoints for turns are critical too! While it's true the FAA implemented a TCA to separate and control aircraft, a TCA does nothing about mechanical failures or pilot error.

The safety of the flying public, AS WELL AS the health & welfare of those on the ground under these paths MUST be considered before the all mighty dollar, or shaving a minute or two off flying time.

JustWondering: It would surprise no one if the FAA is making decisions on behalf of airlines, not citizens. As I have said many times, regulation doesn't work because of coziness with the companies regulated. But deregulation doesn't work either because companies take advantage of their freedom and screw their customers. Best, Don Bauder

So glad you spotlit this Don...I have great empathy for Point Loma residents who have had the flight levels lowered over them.....noisier heck yeah...in La Jolla, residents bought, rent, work in what they thought was a peaceful neigborhood...now on a clear day it is akin to living under the airport freeway...when summer comes and people open their windows etc., it will only be worse.... go to FlightRadar24.com to learn the true levels of how low they are flying.... real estate expert sources say home values and businesses will be affected...a lawsuit was filed in time I understand.... collectively I think people should ask for property tax reductions in the interim as well as compensation from the airport compensation fund

sdsocialdiary: Margo, I asked a source about property tax reductions. She replied emphatically, "We don't want property tax reductions. We want to stop the noise!" There are a lot of indignant people in La Jolla. Best,Don Bauder

Don agreed...the noise is the priority but it may take a money loss stance to the city to make them listen.... Margo Schwab

sdsocialdiary: Cameron Volker, who is in real estate, doesn't think La Jolla home values have been affected yet, but it's just a matter of time.

You are right that a reduction in tax receipts might force a government into action, however. Best, Don Bauder

sdsocialdiary: La Jolla's Bird Rock, Muirlands, and Shores residents all have complaints. The problem seems to be everywhere in La Jolla. Best, Don Bauder

yes... and they keep flying lower and denying it.... FlightRadar24.com for more accurate flight levels...

sdsocialdiary: Has the FAA been asked why the lower flight levels are necessary? Best, Don Bauder

save $$moola...save money for whom.... the money trail...charge the passenger $3 extra bucks....really would like to know about the money trail....

sdsocialdiary: I would guess that the FAA puts airline profits ahead of citizens in this case. Best, Don Bauder

money ( big business) talks, the residents can take a hike as far as the faa is concerned.

Murphyjunk: That is a common complaint. Best, Don Bauder

Were the flight patterns officially changed? It seems like there is eyewitness accounts claiming they were but nothing official from the FAA? Does the FAA and/or SAN have to make some sort of public announcement or hold neighborhood information sessions? It seems like some sort of official procedure for that should be in place - maybe it isn't but that would seem pretty weird to me. Or maybe they had some sort of mandated announcement but it wasn't well publicized?

ImJustABill: As far as I know, La Jolla residents -- and for that matter, merchants -- were not informed in advance when the noise started in October/November 2016. Best, Don Bauder

The noise problem is occurring in other cities where Metroplex (NextGen) airspace optimization is being deployed. In L.A. County, residents of Westside communities have been complaining about increased noise. Last year Los Angeles City Councilman Steve Bonin wrote an angry letter to the FAA about his constituents concerns.

"'To put it bluntly, the FAA's answer is pure B.S.,' Bonin wrote this week to two members of Congress who represent the noise-affected areas, including Pacific Palisades, Mar Vista and Culver City. 'There's no way they are being honest with me or the people I represent,' Bonin told U.S. Reps. Ted Lieu and Karen Bass. Lieu is part of the Quiet Skies Caucus of Congress and has co-sponsored bills to increase local authority over aviation noise." (89.3 KPCC News).

In a March 2016 story in the Washington Post, "overall noise complaints tripled between 2014 and 2015." "Many residents blame the increase in noise to the Federal Aviation Administration’s upgrade of its flight navigation system, known as NextGen. The multi-billion dollar initiative is designed to modernize the nation’s air traffic control systems by switching from radar to satellite navigation."

"The shift enables planes to fly more direct routes, saving fuel and reducing carbon emissions. But in some parts of the country, it has meant more noise for people on the ground — and not just in the District." (WaPo By Lori Aratani March 7, 2016)

A bit before my time but I've read that one of the Marx brothers used to have a one-line gag "Who are you going to trust - me, or your lying eyes?" I think the joke was that even though he was blatantly lying about something and got caught he still was trying to get the other person to believe him. It was such a ridiculous lie and explanation that it was funny.

It sounds like the FAA is saying the same thing "Who are you going to trust - us, or your lying eyes?"- but not as a joke. They want people to not believe their own eyes but to trust them.

ImJustABill: It's too early to say that the FAA is doing what you suggest. But no one would be surprised if it is. Best, Don Bauder

Yes - it could be anything from an honest misunderstanding or honest disagreement to the FAA intentionally being misleading - or anything in between. I really couldn't say with any certainty what it is.

ImJustABill: Generally in such cases, I dismiss honest misunderstanding. But then I am skeptical. Best, Don Bauder

Ponzi: It's hardly surprising that similar noise problems are affecting other municipalities. Best, Don Bauder

We're waaay past "peak oil." Drilling deeper, mining tar sands, and trying every fracking stunt we can to wring the last of the earth's petroleum out to indulge our fantasies and ignore basic needs. Consume, consume CONSUME is the law of our culture. We are the only animal species that does not live "sustainably." And all the technology and all the "investment" we can throw at such buzz words and phrases is not going to "save" us.

Inconvenient? We are drunk on what we call "progress." But Nature bats last.

Flapper: The measurement of our economy is based on consumption. In fact, consumption is about 71` percent of our gross national product. This being the case, one would think government would do something to stop the sinking of the middle class, and do something about the vast gap between the middle/lower income groups and the superrich. But nothing ever gets done, because the superrich line the pockets of the politicians. Best, Don Bauder

Fox News just had a story how Phoenix AZ and other cities are doing battle on this issue... Here's a question Don... who are the people of the FAA for San Diego....?

sdsocialdiary: Suggest you give Cameron Volker a call. Best, Don Bauder

Trump is calling for privatization of the air traffic control system. What could go wrong?

some of his biggest donors are in La Jolla or invested there... so are the biggest for the Clintons and Obamas.....let's see what happens....

Maybe Papa Doug and Irwin Jacobs work through their ideological differences and work together on the new private air traffic control system????

ImJustABill: Only if their homes are affected. Best, Don Bauder

sdsocialdiary: You are looking in the right places: donations. Best, Don Bauder

sdsocialdiary: Gee. Favors for big donors? Really? That isn't what I was told in my seventh grade civics class. Best, Don Bauder

Ponzi: Everything. Privatization was tried in the Reagan years. It doesn't work. Best, Don Bauder

my 'deep throttle' source informs me that real estate sales people have to disclose that La Jolla is now under an airway flight zone.... it is logically implied from there that that will impact sales and prices I would think... and they want to increase traffic and lower the flight levels....

sdsocialdiary: Cameron Volker thinks it's just a matter of time when La Jolla home values begin to decline. There are other variables, of course. Best, Don Bauder

from my 'DEEP THROTTLE' source .... You must disclose all neighborhood nuisance issues. The seller is a must, if the agent KNOWS about it and does not disclose they can be liable too.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/residential-home-sellers-california-your-disclosure-obligations.html

sdsocialdiary: It makes sense that the seller should have to disclose the noise. Best, Don Bauder

Still, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line (following the earth's curvature).

Flapper: Now there is a brilliant revelation. Best, Don Bauder

Corinna Jordan: When you moved into your current house, did the owner or the agent warn you about military aircraft noise? Best, Don Bauder

John Oliver: Did she know the base was there? Possibly not. Best, Don Bauder

Do you want the airlines to burn more fuel or less fuel?

Do you want ticket prices higher or lower?

Do you want your airline dividends to go up or down?

Do you want to accelerate the backside of the Peak Oil curve or slow it down?

Do you believe that Jet A will be always cheap and in endless supply or not?

Flapper: I would want airline dividends to go up if I owned any airline stocks. I do not, never have, and do not intend to. Best, Don Bauder

Robert Espiritu: Half the jets can't get off the ground? Are you counting the over-the-hill ones parked in deserts? Best, Don Bauder

FlightRadar24.com ... great app ... real altitude...very interesting...

all night long.... 4:32 a.m. ...commercial jet...they, FAA claims per La Jolla Light that they fly 8,300 or up over La Jolla Shores...that's interesting... on FlightRadar24.com we consistently get low 7,000's ...and the other day a F* E jet according to the app was at 5,800.... how low can the FAA go.... in so many ways

Depending on the weather conditions; fog, heavy clouds, high winds... The pilot may use very different ceiling/floor altitudes outside of FAA "guidelines."

this am at 7:30 big jet... 4,000 feet... kind of short of the claimed 8,300 or higher.... FB - STOP AIR FLIGHTS OVER LA JOLLA

The 11:30 p.m. to 6:30 a.m. curfew at Lindbergh only applies to departures. I believe the noise you are hearing this morning (and earlier) are landings. Because this morning (2/17) all flights are approaching from west to east (rather than the usual east to west) because of winds.

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