Tilted Kilt waitresses and other San Diego bar girls sound off

Guys are gross

Woman at Fifth and G who lures passersby with free admission and booze to a nearby Irish bar.
  • Woman at Fifth and G who lures passersby with free admission and booze to a nearby Irish bar.
  • Image by Howie Rosen

It's Monday night and at 8:00 p.m., and I am sitting at a table at the Tilted Kilt in Mission Valley. With the exception of a few guys on barstools, a group of British tourists, and an inebriated man nursing a gin and tonic, it’s dead.

The drunk guy is beginning to nod off when Molly, a server, addresses him.

“You okay, hon?” she asks. “Want another one?”

He bobs his tipsy head, indicating that he’s fine. Molly shrugs and smiles. He grins, revealing a row of coffee-stained teeth.

Molly O’Dell is 19. She is tan and thin. She wears the Tilted Skirt uniform — knee-high socks, a micro-mini plaid skirt, and a white blouse unbuttoned to reveal a black push-up bra. Like the other servers, she ties her shirt above her waist to show off her midriff, which is pierced. She wears glasses. She resembles Britney Spears in the music video “...Baby One More Time.”

Molly has been paid to wear next to nothing since she was 16.

“I started as a hostess at Hooters when I was 16. I had an older friend that worked there. She told me I could be a hostess and make $50 a night and have a bunch of boys pay attention to me. What 16-year-old doesn’t want guys telling her constantly how pretty she is?”

In high school, Molly’s job was unique. Most of the kids had normal waitressing gigs, mall jobs, or worked at grocery stores.

“On the first day of school, when the teachers would ask the kids in the class where they worked, I always had to say, ‘I’m 16 and work at Hooters.’” Molly laughs at the memory. “Some of my classmates thought it was the coolest thing ever.”

Molly admits that her choice to become a Hooters employee was awkward at first. Her dad and grandmother weren’t really onboard with the idea.

“My grandmother was very, very offended. She said I was a cute girl that should be working somewhere else. She came into Hooters one day and saw that I was acting my age. I was being cute and giggly. I wasn’t sitting behind a desk acting like a stuffy woman. My dad cared at first, too, but then he came in. He saw me at work and was cool with it. He saw that I was using what I have to make a buck. He understood. He comes into the Tilted Kilt sometimes.”

In order for Molly to maintain her job at the Tilted Kilt, she spends $200 a month on a personal trainer, $10 on a gym membership, $25 at the tanning bed, $50–$100 on make-up, $50 to get her nails done, and another $40 to get her hair trimmed every six weeks.

“When I was working at Hooters,” she says, “I spent way more money on maintenance. They wanted me to be perfect. My hair was bleach-blond back then. This is a lifestyle choice. I don’t get to sit on the couch and eat chips all day. I work hard for this body. I am only young once. I’ll only have this body for so long, might as well live it up.”

Amy and Kirjah interview at Miller's Field in Pacific Beach

Molly says that customers can get a little handsy sometimes, but it’s part of her job. She sticks up for herself and knows how to politely remove herself from an uncomfortable situation.

“I have to deal with inappropriate behavior 24/7. Guys are gross. I had some drunk guy stick his face in my boobs. He dove face-first into my boobs. I wanted to hit him. A lot of the girls are passive-aggressive. They say, ‘Please don’t do that, please don’t touch me.’ I stand up for myself. Guys will say whatever is on their mind. Like, ‘Can I get your number? Can I take you out tonight? How much do you weigh? What size bra do you wear?’ I doubt they would ask a normal girl that. Customers think we are strippers or playmates.” Molly sighs. “It’s sad, but you kind of get used to it after a while.”

Molly says that, with a job like hers, it can be difficult dating. Her boyfriends don’t always understand her career choice, and neither do their parents.

“I’ve had guys ask me to quit my job for them. I tell them no, never. Sometimes their parents find out where I work and are, like, ‘You work where? Why?’ They don’t understand. People are judgmental. It’s not like this is my lifetime career. My day job is at a financial advisor’s office. I’m a personal assistant. I’m also in school to become an elementary-school teacher.” Molly laughs. “I don’t know how my students’ parents are going to feel when they see internet photos of me dressed like this.”

Molly has dated customers on occasion.

“It doesn’t work out. They want you to be in costume 24/7. They want your hair done and full make-up all the time. There are a lot of girls that work here that get offended by customers. There are other girls that love the attention and hearing guys tell them that they are pretty and have a nice body. There is a fine line. There are some girls that go to guys’ houses and pool parties. They are doing God only knows what. There is a line you can’t pass.”

The British tourists at the table behind us are getting boisterous. Molly gets up to check on them.

“Hey,” one shouts. “How about a photo?”

Molly wedges in between the four men. They drape their arms around her. She smiles sweetly for the camera.

“I never pay for my drinks,” says Amy (far left). “Guys pay for all that.” But Kirjah (far right) warns, “Guys become stalkers.”

“I never pay for my drinks,” says Amy (far left). “Guys pay for all that.” But Kirjah (far right) warns, “Guys become stalkers.”

It’s a Friday night and Katie, Kirjah, and Amy are getting ready to go to Miller’s Field In Pacific Beach.

They are in Clairemont, at Kirjah Trailer’s parents’ house, where Kirjah still lives.

“I guess you could say that we are bar girls, that’s what we do,” 23-year-old Kirjah says. She motions for me to sit on the bed beside her overweight chocolate Labrador retriever. Clouds are painted on her walls. On her dresser, a row of nail polishes and perfumes are neatly arranged.

“Don’t turn around,” she says. “I’m completely nude!” A few minutes later, she emerges from a closet wearing tight black pants rolled at the ankle, platform shoes, and a push-up bra.

“Do you think I should wear these?” she asks, holding up a pair of silicone breast cutlets. Without waiting for a response, she slides them in her bra. She throws on a see-through button-down black-and-white striped top, tucks her nearly waist-length perfectly curled blonde hair behind her ears, and sprays on so much perfume I go into a sneezing fit.

Meanwhile, Katie sits in front of the mirror, running a curling iron through her hair to create long, cascading curls.

“It smells gross,” Kirjah announces, scrunching up her nose. “Like burnt fake hair.”

“Don’t be jealous that I have sicker extensions than you,” Katie says. She bends down and straps on green stilettos with a plaid print on the heel. They go with her short green shorts and sheer white blouse. “I can go in the ocean tomorrow with this hair and whatever new boyfriend I’ll meet tonight, so shut up, bitch.”

All three of the young women crack up.

“We go to clubs every weekend and during the week,” Amy says. “I usually go to the Gaslamp on Fridays and PB on Saturdays. For a while, I was going all the time. For three weeks straight, I went to a club every night of the week.” Amy wears black pants and a low-cut red tank with black spots. Her long brown hair is stick-straight.

“That’s when we all had good jobs,” Katie says. “We were skinnier back then, because we worked so much we hardly ate. God, we were hot.”

Twenty-five-year-old Amy worked primarily as a promo girl before landing a job doing the books for Thirst and Taste, a downtown sports bar. Kirjah organized party buses before becoming a full-time nanny to two neighbor boys. Katie — well, Katie doesn’t seem to like answering questions.

“I worked for a company called Sinsational Events,” she finally says. “They outsource different companies for you to do promo work for. Through them, I worked for Hornitos and Jim Beam. On Cinco de Mayo, I worked for Hornitos, handing out T-shirts and shots. You have to take pictures with customers. Sometimes, it’s creepy taking pictures with all the drunk guys. I worked a golf event once where they had bars set up at every hole. It was a big party on the golf course. I got paid 150 dollars, and another $200 to pour beer for a bunch of guys. It was really fun.”

All three admit they don’t pay for their drinks when they go out to clubs.

“We never have to pay covers,” Amy says. “Everyone knows us. They just let us in. Guys pay for all that.”

Kirjah nods. “Guys become stalkers. They follow you around all night, just for buying you a drink.”

“Even when I say I need to go to the bathroom,” Amy says, “they wait for me outside the door.”

“We don’t date those guys,” Kirjah explains. “When we go to the clubs, we know everyone there. When we see guys down there, I can name at least three people they have already slept with. No, thanks.”

Katie says, “If you wanted a relationship, you aren’t going to meet those guys in a club. Everyone has hooked up with everyone. I started internet dating last summer. I did that for a little bit. The guys are creepy.”

“They’re way worse than club guys,” Kirjah says. “They’re just looking for sex.”

Kirjah, Katie, and Amy all agree that San Diego has a great nightlife.

“San Diego has one of the biggest scenes,” Kirjah says. “It’s the next one from Vegas. I know people in Vegas that get nervous when large groups of San Diegans come for the weekend. L.A. is mostly stuck-up people going out to look good. They’re either hipsters or gay. San Diego people like to party.”

In the Gaslamp, Amy, Kirjah, and Katie frequent the Side Bar, Fluxx, and Taste and Thirst. In Pacific Beach, they go to Miller’s, the Tavern, Beachwood, and Bar West.

“I’m already getting tired of going to bars,” Amy admits. “When I turned 21, my boyfriend and I broke up. That was four years ago. I’ve been regularly going to bars since then.”

I ask the three of them if their parents have an opinion on all the partying they do.

Amy says, “Growing up, Mission Bay High School was definitely a party school.”

“We all went to Mission Bay High School,” Kirjah says. “My house was the party house. My mom would say, ‘Why do you have so many boys over here?’ But she would party with us in the Jacuzzi.”

“I think my parents are oblivious,” Katie says. “They had property in Palm Springs. When I was in high school, they would go there for a week. They would leave me and my sister all by ourselves. They used to buy us alcohol to have our parties with while they were gone.”

Recently, Amy moved in with her mom to save money. It only lasted three months. “She would make comments about what I was wearing or about me going out too much. She would say she could tell when I wasn’t drinking as much anymore, because my skin looked healthier.” Amy rolls her eyes.

I ask if the guys at bars make them feel like sex objects. “Don’t you feel used?”

Katie laughs loudly. “Why would we feel used? We are using them. We don’t pay for shit. We’ve grown up in the bar scene. We don’t give a flying fuck.”

Kirjah pulls up a recent text message and hands the phone to me.

“You’re not showing her the penis text, are you?” Katie asks.

I see a text stream from a guy named Mike (not his real name). There are several shirtless photos and messages that say things like, “You are gorgeous. Call me. I can’t stop thinking about you.”

“Pathetic,” Kirjah says with disgust. “The last time I texted him was April 4, and he still won’t let it go. I get a message from him twice a day. These guys become stalkers.”

“I used to give my number out to anyone that asked for it,” Amy says. “I’ve learned my lesson, because guys will nonstop persistently call me. I never respond to them, and they will text me for months at a time. I’ve never been the kind of girl to chase after a guy like that.”

Katie interrupts, turning to Kirjah. “The last time we hung out together was in Mexico!”

“You left me there,” Kirjah says.

“Yeah, right!” Katie says. “You were in good hands with some Mexican guy you met that day.”

“I showed up in La Jolla the next morning,” Kirjah says. “Everyone was, like, ‘Wow, we definitely thought you were dead, Kirjah!’”

The girls erupt in laughter.

The Double Deuce Bar in the Gaslamp has a mechanical bull and a stripper pole.

On a Friday night at 11:00 p.m., three waitresses dance on the bartop to a country song. They wear short denim cut-offs, low-cut wife-beaters that reveal lacy push-up bras, and cowboy boots. They all have perfectly styled, long, flowing hair. Two are brunettes; the one in the middle is a blonde.

The men in the room gawk. Most have short military-style haircuts and appear to be in their late 20s.

Morgan, the bartender, says she doesn’t dance anymore. She’s the only woman working at Double Deuce that evening whose bra isn’t visible. She wears short-shorts, a midriff-baring tank, large hoop earrings, and knee-highs under her cowboy boots. Her hair is in a long braid.

“I’m 32. I’m too old to dance on the bar. Those girls are in their early 20s.” She gestures at the dancers. They look cute. They’re having fun. “When I first started working here, they made all of us dance, but not anymore.” When she says this last, there is relief in her tone.

Morgan admits that there’s pressure to work out and stay fit, to appear flawless.

“I work out,” she says. “I have to be presentable for this job.”

Morgan takes orders as she chats with me. Her customers, mostly men, stare and smile at her.

I ask if her job makes her feel like a sex object.

“Yeah, of course,” she says. “I get paid well because of my sexuality. But I make more money than half the people in San Diego, so I’m okay with it.” According to Morgan, she makes about $4500 a month. Her largest tip while bartending was from a male customer — $500.

“My parents don’t think it’s a big deal that I work here,” she says. “My dad came in once and was playing on the stripper pole. He definitely doesn’t mind.” She laughs. “Because of working here, I was able to invest in my own property. I know I can’t work here forever.”

Before leaving, I spot a woman riding the mechanical bull. She is all legs and cleavage. A group of men enthusiastically cheer her on.

Julia Grey waits behind a red rope that guards the entrance to Andaz, a posh club and hotel in the Gaslamp, on the corner of Sixth Avenue and F Street. Two other young women stand with her. All three are bottle girls, dressed in skin-tight black dresses and stilettoes. Three security guards hover nearby, while a bouncer checks customer IDs and collects the club’s $20 cover charge.

“I’m a bottle-service girl,” Julia tells me proudly. “I’ve worked here for three months.”

At 21, Julia looks no older than 17. Her hair is brown with blond streaks. Freckles spot her small nose.

Julia’s job entails serving high-end bottles of alcohol to customers, mostly in private rooms. Sometimes, she presents the bottles while holding sparklers. She also has the task of standing at the front door to lure customers inside. Basically, she needs to be pretty.

“What do your parents think about you working here?” I ask.

“They’re fine with it,” Julia says. “I get a lot of perks because this is a Hyatt hotel. They like that. I’m treated really well.”

Before I can ask another question, I am ushered past the red velvet rope by Andaz’s frazzled manager.

“We’re swamped tonight!” the petite woman says.

She speaks into a walkie-talkie-style headpiece visible through her long hair, and with urgency leads me through a bar with a dance floor. A woman in a lavender bikini is up on a stage. Three photographers snap photos.

We share an elevator with a group of women attending a bachelorette party. The bride-to-be wears a pink sash over her skin-tight floral dress. All five ladies are tan and wasted. “This place is so cool,” one slurs.

I’m shown to the rooftop bar, which features a large circular fire pit. Most of the men are dressed in designer jeans and button-down shirts. Nearly all the women wear tight dresses. The servers are in turquoise bikinis and high heels. Some have on white terry-cloth hoodies zipped down to reveal cleavage.

A stunning brunette — a server named Zena — chats with me.

“We get a lot of VIP parties up here,” she says. “Junior Seau came in, and so did Tony Gwynn. We got a lot of celebrities from Comic-Con, too. I have to stay in shape. I spend about $400–$500 a month on beauty maintenance for this job.”

Within minutes, a different manager with a headpiece pulls Zena away and whispers in her ear.

Politely, Zena says, “Sorry, I gotta go.”

A security guard stands near the pool. He tells me that Sunday is his busiest workday. “Every Sunday at 2:00 p.m., we have a bikini contest up here. You should come back for that.”

I take the elevator down to the street. Julia, the bottle-service girl, still stands in front of the club. She smiles brightly at a group of guys waiting to get in.

A barrel-chested security guard is stationed at another entrance. I ask him, “Have you ever had to kick some ass, due to guys groping the women that work here?”

His answer is matter-of-fact. “Yep. More than once.”

At an Irish pub on Fifth Avenue, a petite Filipino girl stands outside, trying to lure customers in. She wears short-shorts, a tight tank paired with shamrock suspenders, and knee-high socks.

“My parents know I work here, but they really don’t know the extent of it,” Lacy (not her real name) grins. “I’m the ‘gets-them-in-the-door’ girl.”

A drunken guy stumbles up and says to Lacy, “Nice shamrocks, will you be my lucky charm?”

She smiles but doesn’t answer. She stamps his hand. Now the drunk guy has free access to the bar.

“I deal with gross guys all the time,” Lacy says. “I kill them with kindness.”

Twenty-four-year-old Lacy tutors during daytime hours, a job, she admits, that’s lower key than this one. “On Saint Patrick’s Day,” she says, “I was groped by a disgusting old man. He grabbed my ass. I screamed and ran away.”

Lacy says that her work clothes, which attract so much attention from men on the street, are no different from what she normally wears. “This kind of thing is what I wear. So it’s no big deal. This job is fun. I might as well just do it.”

Guys constantly ask for her phone number.

“I usually don’t give my number out, unless the guy is really hot,” she says.

Two other girls join her in front of the bar. One wears a bodysuit with the sides cut out, a tight black skirt, and furry black boots. Around her waist, handcuffs act as a belt. The other girl wears a neon-yellow bra paired with a black spandex skirt. She has glitter all over her chest. The glasses she wears have no lenses.

The girl in the yellow bra says, “I never, under any circumstances, give my number out to these guys. I don’t even tell them my real name.”

“They’re dancers,” Lacy tells me.

When I ask if they feel like sex objects, the young women look at me as if I’m stupid.

“Of course,” Lacy says. “That’s kind of the point.”

The dancer in the yellow bra, Dixie (not her real name), tells me she’s worked at the pub for two months. She dances and does promos twice a week.

“I’m just doing what I love,” she says. “I’ve been doing ballet since I was a kid.”

A guy on the street interrupts us. “Oh, my God! Holy shit!” He looks Dixie up and down. “You are hot!”

“You should go in,” she tells him, and points at the bar. He agrees. Dixie stamps the inside of his arm. “This will get you in for free.”

She turns to me and says, “My parents know I work here. They’re fine with it. This job is helping me get my master’s degree.” She shrugs. “If I can look like this forever, I’ll rock it.”

“You’re so tan,” I say. “How much do you spend a month to tan?”

“I don’t pay to tan,” Dixie says. “I have a company that sponsors me to do that.”

Behind us, two guys are talking to the other dancer. “How often do you use those handcuffs?” one asks, grabbing at the cuffs around her waist.

She laughs and stamps their hands.

“These will get you free shots inside,” she says.

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So if a young man uses his body to make money, playing sports, bouncing, becoming a fireman...he deserves respect.

If a young woman uses her body to make money, flirting for drinks, wearing tight revealing clothes at work, or even stripping...she's trash.

What a double standard.

Well that's just a poor comparison. The main activity behind the jobs you've named, isn't to use their sexuality in order to draw in customers! "Ooh Bob's bar has a really hot guy that will kick us out if we act like jerks ! Let's go get drunk there!!" "Ooh Station 51 has hot Firemen ,let's set our house on fire so they'll come here!!" "Ooh that team has hot football players even though they can't play let's root for them!!" (okay some female might go by the logic of that last one) None the less these young women deserve respect simply because they are women. When did it become so "out of fashion" to be a Gentleman because you know how to be respectful??!! (Just FYI yeah I am a guy)

Must be nice to be paid to do nothing but dress like a whore and pour a few drinks

I bust my ass at a shitty job and dont even make a fourth of that,while cleaning up after the types of idiots in these stories

Must be really great to do nothing and be rewarded for it

So if you're hot you should be able to get a job doing that? Oh your not?! Well don't show your jealousy and, hate on those who are!

I feel a little dumber after reading this article... Yes, guys are gross and creepy, especially when they are paying your -3-4k/mo. salary ladies. The road of a woman compromising herself for $ starts at Hooters/waitress at strip club/stripper(topless)/stripper (nude)/Girls gone Wild/Porn.

This article doesn't do much to dispute that most attractive women don't have any substance. S.D. women in general have half the looks and double the attitude compared to W. L.A./O.C. ladies in prime areas. Man Diego is a conservative military town with a bottomless pit of dudes with all the military bases here. That = a perfect storm of 2-3 guys for every female at P.B./D.T. clubs, so dudes get more desperate and delusional when hitting on chicks. This old Reader article below gets more into women's behavior in S.D.

Is the Sun In Your Eyes or Are You Just Avoiding Me? http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/20...

Can't imagine why you're staying here, then!

Free tip: Bars and clubs EVERYWHERE are full of desperate, pathetic people. So what? If you don't like it, don't go. If you think LA is different, then go there and get disappointed.

Why do you think that women compromise themselves when they use their bodies to get ahead in the world?

Will you say this to men who do the same? "Hey, construction worker, stop using the strength in your arms to make a living! Hey, football player, stop using your height and weight to make a living! Hey, actor, stop using your good looks to make a living!"

Fred tell us all about your Gay porn career you gave up to teach at a junior college, because your comparison careers here is apples and oranges ( not moral/integrity based).

How is using strength,acting ability and,athletic ability compromising a man's morals??? Ooooh you used your biceps to lift that I beam....you must be a slut!!!!! Ooooh you ran that ball down the field real fast....your such a whore!! Oooh you made me believe you where a monster from another planet......you tramp???HUH WTF???? Oooh you shoved your big boobs in that little tight shirt and your bodacious butt in that tiny micro-skirt right out there....You must be a very intelligent female !! Otherwise you would be doing some idiots job like a nuclear engineer or cancer researcher!!

"Clearly the opposite is true"

Fred, I didn't say 'ALL' as can you please tell me about all the playboy playmates,porn stars,strippers,Miss America contestants, Hollywood actresses, that you where BLOWN AWAY by their intelligence. Needle in a haystack, I'm just playing the odds for the demographics of this article.

Customers think we are strippers or playmates.” Molly sighs.

No, more like prostitutes who will sell their bodies, legally of course.

Are you kidding, Puppy?

What about the lawyer who rents his brains to his clients to make money? Or the journalist who fudges facts to keep his paycheck? How about PR guys who lie professionally?

Puppy, we're all prostitutes. Personally, I rent my brain to earn a living, thinking thoughts I would prefer not to have to think so I can get paid.

You too are a prostitute, Pup.

Until you're without sin, it's best not to cast stones. I have more respect for the average stripper than I do for the average lawyer.

Who is casting stones???????

All I did was make a factual statement.

You should listen to surfpuppy619, Fred. He obviously must be speaking from personal knowledge. Otherwise he would never make such a spurious statement. We all know that's just not his style!!!

Take it how you want, I was making a comment, not throwing stones, if they want to do that then that is their choice, I have no problem with it as it does not affect me, but I call em like I see em and don't apologize for it......

Well, first of all, it was sarcasm, shurfpuppy619, since, if we are to believe your previous writings, a bar, any bar, with scantily clad women who are probably less than half your age, is the last place you would be found. But if you call them like you see them and you've never been to a Hooters, then how is it you can make a factual statement that the customers think they are prostitutes who will legally sell their bodies, which of course is itself a contradiction in terms. You know, it could be said that if you really don't have any personal knowledge and make such a harsh generalized statement, then it really is just throwing stones.

I have not set foot in a bar, where women half my age or my age are!!...in well over 30 years as I don't drink, and even including the hsort period when I did I just never liked clubs/bars...I had MANY friends who liked Strip Clubs, like the Body Shop over on Rosecrans, good looking guys who had plenty of chicks and I just could never figure out why they liked them, the women cannot stand the men there, they view them as "marks" and the men don't like the women either except for the eye candy, they view them as a piece of meat...but I guess it works for those types. Whatever floats your boat-I don't judge. But I would never go to a Hooters for a $25 coke and burger.

I've gotta back you up on that, Tom.

SurfPuppy is claiming that any woman who dresses in scanty clothing at work is a "prostitute".

This is nearly indistinguishable from the "if she dressed like that she deserved to be raped" argument.

That's not a "fact" or "call em like I see em"...it's a spurious attack on a stranger based entirely on their clothing and gender.

The truth is they dress that way because they get paid a lot more money that way for nearly identical work. The customers know they're paying more for the privilege of having pretty girls pretend to flirt with them while they bring out hot wings. If the customers didn't want to do that, they could go to Denny's and get the food brought by a waitress dressed in a dumpy uniform...and save a lot of money. (Guys will try their best to flirt with the Denny's waitress too.)

Calling these women prostitutes and trash is totally out of line.

SurfPuppy, I enjoy bantering with you and we often agree on major issues, but you've got no justification calling the women in this article prostitutes and trash. You honestly think that working at Hooters is the same as prostitution? That's harsh and unfair, Pup. (Especially when you're hiding behind a pseudonym. Isn't it time you use your real name? If you did, you'd think twice about what you write. I use my real name, and save my condemnation for those who deserve it...like the political prostitutes running San Diego.)

As for the women who are working their way through college, and are wise enough to recognize that they can earn a whole lot more by dressing sexy...I admire them. They're smart. They do honest work for what they get paid. They plan for their future, taking advantage of what they have while they have it.

Who are you to call them prostitutes or trash?

If you, SurfPuppy, had been lucky enough to have been born an attractive female, maybe you'd be working as a receptionist at Hooters too...instead you became a lawyer. For the women in this article, it's clear that their current work is a temporary side-path on the way to bigger and better things...for you it's a career.

" I have more respect for the average stripper than I do for the average lawyer." I would say the same thing Fred, but except for a few lawyers whom I happen to know personally and are good people, I've never met one I could even say meets the average bar, no pun intended. I think for most of them, average is a lofty aspiration. LOL

Yes, it seems most lawyers are below average...which should be statistically impossible, but since they're lawyers they seem to have found a loophole.


I always thought prostitutes were selling a very specific part of their bodies. To liken that to 'a lawyer who rents his brains" is either silliness or intellectual dishonesty.

San Diego has more men than women, in almost every age group. Has for decades. Look at the census figures. And I don't think the census counts military members in their duty station, so that adds to the ratio big time. When I was dating, over 20 years ago, a matchmaker author chose San Diego as the best place in the US for a woman to find a man, by a far margin. There is no corrresponding city in the US with as heavy a woman/man ratio in the other direction. I could go on and on about this. So, San Diego is easy for the ladies. My solution? I married; a foreigner without an 'attitude' (she already lived here, graduated from college here, had all her family here, so I didn't 'import' her ). Now my 21 year old daughter takes big advantage of the "scene" herself. And I get to meet all the guys whose heart she's breaking. Life goes on.

mridolf - interesting input and it sounds like you played your cards right with your choice for a wife. The current divorce rate in CA. is 75%, so if I ever get married it seems to make sense to go that route of a foreign bride or the rarity of a recently transplanted female that hasn't been California-ized. So Cal epitomizes everything that is wrong with America's culture (materialism,celebrity worship,,self-absorbed,entitlement,). I have family that lives in Prague, and Eastern-European women have the reputation of not being consumed by feminism like the west.

Why are HURRICANES named after women from CA.? Because when they first arrive they are wet and wild, but when they leave they take your house and your cars.

Dude, as someone who has lived in both San Diego and Prague, I can tell you that the women in Prague are just as interested in materialism, celebrity worship, self-absorbment, and entitlement as they are in Stockholm, Bangkok, or Delhi (where I have also lived and worked).

Similarly, the men in those places are sometimes shallow, stupid, and ugly, yet they expect a woman to become their little virgin servants.

Dream on...if you try to get some Czech girl to date you, she'll expect the same treatment as an American, or Swede, or Indian. If you're not willing to treat her with respect, even when she's using her body to make some money, (just like you do!), you won't get a second date.

... the men in those places are sometimes shallow, stupid, and ugly, yet they expect a woman to become their little virgin servants.

Fred, don't make things personal with me. You've been warned!

Fred's one of these metro sexual boy in the bubble types who has a lot of theories, but not from practical application in the real world. Hitting on chicks like the rest of us real men, and taking our knocks and rejections and learning from them. He and his legend is his own mind intellect is learning a new language on Saturday night and 2am while us commoners are trying to get laid.

Seriously - you dress like that at 16, work at Hooters and now dress like that at 19. I wouldn't be surprised if you got offers to be a porn star.......and became one! Have some modesty girl!

And the cover of the magazine - Guys are Gross - but SHE is dressed like trash!

So if you show off your body, you are trash?

I guess I'd better stop taking my shirt off on hot days.

She is not showing off her body, she is sexualizing herself to make money. Not trash, but call it what it is.

QUOTE "She told me I could be a hostess and make $50 a night and have a bunch of boys pay attention to me. What 16-year-old doesn’t want guys telling her constantly how pretty she is?”

Only those that have no self esteem or self worth and need the attention of boys to feel valued.

Oh SNAP, you brought the smack down.....it would be funny if not so true......

So, I guess I have no self esteem or self worth...I need the attention of my wife to feel valued. In fact, without her approval and support, I'd be devastated. Guess I'm a big loser, huh?

WHAT THE F--K WAS THE POINT OF THIS ARTICLE? How did the Editor let this one slip by? You must be hurting for content. This is the worst POS I've ever read in your "magazine." NO wonder it's free.

Yeah, Molly, you ARE a pretty girl, but real men don't need to hang out at Hooters and hit the bars, so you're getting a BAD education. Don't date ANY customer in a place like that--designed to attract losers, and worse. All the stuff you're doing to yourself is simple fraud--be your OWN self, not some fantasy woman for eternally adolescent males. DON'T be a fantasy woman--be YOU!

Twister, would you give the same advice to a young man who uses his body to make a living? Actors, athletes, firemen, and others have to rely on their bodies...are they committing fraud too?

If you look at the behavior of the San Diego Chargers, on and off the field, and tell me how that compares with the behavior of Hooters girls.

Yet those Chargers players are considered role models?

She is not using her body/muscles/physical skills to do a job, she is using sexuality to make money. Athletes, FF and others do not.

Ahtletes don't use their sexuality to make money??? That has got to be one of the silliest things I've ever read. I guess you are too young to have had a girlfriend with one of these on her bedroom wall. And this was 1972 Ever seen one of David Beckham's underwear ads?? He made $37 million last year from endorsements like this: Yeah, tell me he's not using his sexuality . How about the SI Body Paint issue or the SI Body issue? You're telling me those athletes nude, male and female, aren't using there sexuality to make money AND sell a magazine? How about the double entendre Go Daddy ads with Danica Patrick? The list goes on and on. Welcome the 21st century, surfpuppy619. SEX SELLS. The sexuality of athletes, both male and female, is a HUGE part of marketing today. and that means they are using their sexuality to help sell a product...AND make money for themselves.



Not on the field or in the pool, they use their atheletic skills-not flesh and sex.....in the example you have shown I don't think there is any difference between Mark Spitz hawking products and these Hooters waitresses hawking their boobs for $$$$........

"in the example you have shown I don't think there is any difference between Mark Spitz hawking products and these Hooters waitresses hawking their boobs for $$$$........" My point exactly. And it's the fact that they are athletes that allows them to use sex as an instrument for monetary gain. If they weren't, then they couldn't trade off of it. Now matter how hot my wife thinks Beckham is, if he was driving a lorry in Manchester for a living, I doubt he would be making millions doing underwear ads. If Spitz goes 0 for in Munich, there is no beefcake poster. So in that sense, they have most definitely used their athletic skills in the pool or on the field. It's a direct result of those skills that they even have the opportunities to flaunt themselves for money. And I can guarantee you that any woman who is buying H7M underwear for her man, is not doing it because he's a great footballer.

Well, they have not really used their "athletic skills" as much as they are using the notoriety of their winning an athletic competition, which has given them a certain amount of fame/celebrity........ I think it is different in that the goal of the athlete is not to make money per se, but to win the competition........ knowing that if he does win he will make money by way of endorsements.These women are using their sex appeal to make money, and while I don't object to it, i think it is a dangerous path to go down (and not just women, I have a few friends who were/are male strippers, some for more than 25 years), in that looks fade fairly fast-at age 30, 32 or 35 their sex appeal game is over. I think getting an education and planning for both short and LONG term goals is a better bet IMO.

Read the article again Pup.

They ARE getting an education...one is studying for a masters.

They are NOT strippers or prostitutes, so your comparison is ridiculous. They're working at a restaurant serving food.

Finally, are you seriously claiming to have a male friend who has been stripping for twenty five years? Really? 25 years? His bank account must be quite well endowed...or you're just making that up.

But again, comparing the women in this article to strippers is totally bogus and unwarranted. They're waitresses!

They will NEVER eork as a teacher or have a regular job-ever, the eqasy money of flashing their skin at HOOTERS WILL NOT BE DUPLICATED AT A REAL JOB, AT LEAST NOT STARTING OUT, AND WHEN THE LOOKS AND SEX FADES IT WITH it then it willl be too late. sorry bout the caps.


So because their first job in their chosen profession may pay less (no proof of that, just your assertion), they'll be so disappointed they'll quit, start smoking crack, end up walking the street. Is that what you're claiming?

I'll suggest a more likely alternative...

With the people skills they've learned from Hooters, combined with their education, they'll get any job they want. And with those people skills (and their good looks too, which don't just disappear one day), they'll be promoted rapidly, and end up earning far more than you or me.

I also have no proof of this, like you...but I think it's far more likely than your scenario.

Manipulating men/people with flesh and sex is not a "skill" Fred, learned at Hooters, the local strip club, or anywhere else, sorry.

Jeez, surf pup. looks like you have never worked in a restaurant. news flash: it is very hard work, regardless of what kind of "outfit" one is required to wear. i work in the business field now, but putting myself through college, I waitressed. one of the most diffficult jobs both mentally and physically out there.

OMG, is there ANYTHING you are NOT an expert on maria???????? BTW honey I worked in restaurants all thru school, and I never showed off my boobies to make $$$$.

If women refused to objectify themselves, this world might be a place with legitimate opportunities for women with brains and natural beauty. I hope Morgan reports her $4,500 a month income for pouring drinks to the I.R.S.

I kind of rambled on but “just saying” my opinion. First, thanks to all military that serve but don't be taken advantage of by sleazy girls. I’ve heard since this is a military town that young naive military especially not from SD that get based here will waste most of their paycheck paying for girl’s drinks or gifts etc. The girls get used to this & expect all guys to do this. The bad thing is that there are fewer girls (especially friendly ones) in SD than other places like LA or OC & on average the girls there seem prettier too. My guess is that LA attracts a lot of aspiring actresses that tend to have better than average good looks. LA & OC unfortunately have worse traffic, smog & crime rates/gangs etc. But LA is a bigger town with more places & city life things to do. So staying in SD means less traffic/smog/crime & girls then LA/OC but not by much for first three. The worst thing is that because of this even average looking girls act like their too good for some guys. Especially if a girl with average looks is fit or skinny then they really think they’re hot. Now if you do find a good looking girl who is also fit & skinny in SD then watch out. Of course there are always exceptions but they’re rare in SD. In most cases the pretty & nice ones are usually married or committed to someone. That is great if they are not just using that guy. I understand it goes both ways. Some guys will only give pretty girls attention & some guys are a-holes just trying to screw everything they can. It is why I try to stick with one committed girl as long as I can from just the fear of STDs. This said not all pretty girls in SD are stuck up, using guys or expecting guys to pay for everything but they are in short supply. I grew up poor & hear how women want equality but still want all the perks of the past. What I think is sad is when a girl can’t even pay for herself & expects the guy to always pay. It’s really unattractive that a modern girl uses her looks to get what she wants & can’t support herself with anything else. Get some self-respect & feel proud that you are able to pay your own way! I don’t understand how a guy is considered gross for noticing someone dressing skimpily. Don’t get me wrong I like seeing some skin but hate girls acting like it’s gross that you noticed. You want the attention but act like you should be upset unless a guy you think is hot notices. Then it’s OK. What is gross is girls acting like a hooker expecting guys to pay just for their company too. Girls should appreciate a guy’s company as equal worth to their company or its just prostitution. I’m told I’m above average good looking guy & financially I’m doing very well based off a skilled work not looks. I like girls with similar characteristics. I noticed when I go other places cities, states & especially other countries it seems like girls are much friendlier. I try to treat all people equally regardless of looks.

Men, take note. Study this article. Understand when you go out to these bars and "clubs" you are a mark. You are a mark to be mined for food, cover charges, free drinks, and anything else these women can get their hands on. Bottle service, now there is a real ripoff. Once you've spent your loot, it's goodbye to you, you'll never see these people again, because they couldn't give a damn about you. They get free food and drinks on your dime, you get ripped off. If this is your idea of a "good time" or a "night out," you need your head examined.

The only solution is for real men to stand up and stop playing this bullshit game. Don't go to these stupid places where you pay outrageous cover charges or have to pay laughably inflated prices for cheap, watered-down liqueur. Refuse to buy drinks, or anything else, for these women, because they are interested in only one thing: you subsidizing their night out. To all of this, men must rise up and say, to hell with all of it. Instead, throw a house party and invite over trustworthy women and some of their friends. Have a dinner party and drinks with some of your mates and invite some female friends. Expand your social circle in this manner -- and save a ton on stupid bottle service and overpriced drinks in places where the only thing the women and location care about is your wallet. Please, do anything at all except ply these trash women with your hard-earned money. Be a man, recognize the con, refuse to be a mark.

Replace those girls with "financial advisor". Exact same situation.

When you go to get their "advice" you're just a mark, and they'll take a lot more of your money than any stripper.

Replace those girls with "financial advisor". Exact same situation. Not necessarily. Good business people try to offer a value for their product services. They don't view you as a "mark", legitimate businesses don't.

Ladies, what news is this...that men are gross? Once in a little while, you might come across a decent one but for the most part, it's time to get real. When the biological clock starts to tick for you when you hit your 30's, it's time to suck it up and find a man so you can get married or be a mom, if that's what you want? My advice: stay out of bars and clubs--NOTHING ever good comes of it. You gotta get out there and mingle but that can be done through travel, hobbies, friends, sports and blind dates. Not everyone will hit the jackpot in the love department and there are lots of frogs to kiss before you meet the prince, but if you stay home watching chick flicks and eating ice cream, you will only get FAT and look pathetic!

Gail, you're one smart cookie! But the hawties want the easy way out, and won't work at finding the RIGHT guy! You are so one the money about bars and clubs. And running around in a Hooters costume is absolutely the wrong messege to be sending out.

Hmmm....could it be that your experience isn't valid for others, Gail?

Personally, I don't go to bars and clubs because I think it's a waste of money. If I want to see some skin, it's on the internet for free, or just go to the beach.

I also like to read books, learn foreign languages, and travel. But that is not everyone's desire. A lot of people would rather get tipsy, dance, and flirt...maybe even have sex with someone they meet.

Read books by Helen Fisher (The Anatomy of Love) and Dorothy Lee (Valuing the Self). Especially the latter, and it's smaller.

Thanks for the tips Twister, will read them myself.

Those done, Naomi Wolf's "The Beauty Myth: How Images of Beauty are Used Against Women" is also a book well worth reading by young women, but young (and old) men would find it mind-expanding too.

Too bad the subject of this article is not participating in this discussion. The subject matter is at the core of much of today's problems--at both the individual and social level. Too bad only Surf Puppy seems interested.

But the central point remains: Don't let yourself be manipulated and don't manipulate others. That holds for both women and men, boys and girls. Respond with silence.

ERROR: The last sentence should have read: "Respond with silence when any attempt is made to manipulate you."

Women and girls are the most common victims of manipulation, often by "men" who are insecure about themselves. Some learn to defend themselves by manipulating men. That's "understandable," but manipulation of all kinds tends to backfire. SOMETIMES, but only sometimes, deception can be a useful DEFENSIVE strategy, but it should never be used as an offensive strategy. True INDEPENDENCE of thought and action is not only every individual's RIGHT, it is every person's RESPONSIBILITY.

That said, the PRESENT reality is that manipulation and deception almost characterize "our" culture, and increasingly, other cultures too. I consider this trend to be an extension of a psychopathology that got started somewhere around ten or fifteen thousand years ago and went crazy because it worked so well (e.g. the Sumerians, Egyptians, Olmec, Chavin . . . ) that it has persisted through the ages largely because such cultures have been able to suppress the majority in favor of minority hierarchies. The early cultures may have sacrificed virgins, etc. directly, but modern-day hierarchies do so by stealth.

At the individual level, manipulation and deception continue to be more direct with suppression of other individuals, such as the monster-men who actually remain such little boy-children mentally that they murder their girlfriends and wives, sometimes even their own children.

Girls and women, if you even get a hint of a controlling behavior in a "man," get away from him while you can. Learn to recognize neediness in all its forms.

Men and boys also should avoid controlling women. The old values of strength and courage still hold, so don't fall for the predominant, phony macho distortion of those principles into brutality and domination.

I thought girls had to be 21 to work in Hooters--or to serve alcohol anywhere.

Good write-up. There's a lot more to be said about these "ladies"...

First of all, had I known that my picture was going to be along with this article I would've never taken it. This is the stupidest article I have ever read. Everyone of these comments is stupid as duck. Honestly, I don't even care about men buying me drinks. I am a woman who works for herself and makes her own money and any female who feels that she needs a man for these reasons in disgusting. Get it together ladies.

Back when I was a kid, women had two choices. She could work under a man for dirt wages or she could screw him for big bucks and be "independent." My aunts and cousins were smart enough to choose the latter, but one of my cousins died on the floor of a saloon, knifed by a jealous wife. That cousin was a sweet, beautiful young woman. Her sister got out of the business, but was forever scarred and scared.

Now, women have better choices. Hooters ain't one of them. Read those books and find something to do that you really like. But if you get used to those big Hooter tips, you'll never be able to swim out of the whirlpool.

I want you, all young women, to have a fair chance at a good life. Tell Hooters, it's been a hoot, but you give a hoot about yourself--or don't tell them anything, just walk out.

With respect to the stupid comments, please explain to us why you think they are stupid, especially mine.

Thanks for having the guts to get involved in the discussion. It's important for you, and it's important for every woman.

Hmmmmm...........how old are you sweety??

Jbizzle, I don't think the article is stupid. It's telling a story about an uncomfortable topic...people using their bodies to try to advance themselves in life.

Women and men both do this.

I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of. I've used my good looks to my advantage my whole life. I know I've been chosen over other professionals in my line simply because I'm better looking. (Hint to all IT professionals: Wear a suit and tie instead of dirty t-shirts and your income will double.)

Professional athletes, firemen, actors...if they're men, they don't get negativity for using their bodies to earn a living. When I dress up at work, I get compliments, not insults. When I take my shirt off on a hot day, nobody calls me a slut.

Enjoy getting the free drinks, dear. It's a pittance compared to what young athletes get for flaunting their bodies...no "sports booster" ever gave you a free car, right? And I bet you're better educated than most college or professional athletes, and far less likely to commit violent crimes.

Those who cast their scorn on you are hypocrites. Being young and pretty has ALWAYS given people an unfair advantage that they'd be foolish not to use in life. That's nothing to be ashamed of...it's just how the world works.

Well said, Fred. But "attractive" goes deeper than "image," and egocentrism can screw up the outside. An "attractive" woman can do far, far better than Hooters--or any other business built primarily upon manipulation. Let's hope the brightest of the young women don't get sucked into a whirlpool of one-note existence, exploited and cast off when they are no longer needed and live lives of noisy desperation. I'd leave it off my resume (a permissible deception?), and spend my time off learning more and more about what I'm really interested in (animals, children, saving the world, etc.?). I'd volunteer to make life more enjoyable for people a bit less beautiful than I.

Let people love you for what you are, not ONLY for what you look like. A big problem attractive and wealthy people have is that they're never quite certain who their friends are. So beauty and wealth can backfire, as they are both targets for exploitation, which may be the price one has to pay . . .

Twister, old friend, the women in this article (maybe with the exception of the barflies) seem to be doing it temporarily while studying in college. One of them is pursuing a masters degree.

Doesn't sound to me like these women are being exploited. Some of the other commenters here even claim the opposite...that they're exploiting the male customers.

What if we take a simpler approach to this...nobody is being exploited here. They're working at Hooters wearing a sexy uniform to earn a lot more serving food than they would if they worked at Denny's in a dumpy uniform.

The customers know it. The women know it. You know it. Why assume they're throwing their lives away?

Personally, I spent four years in the military to help pay for college. I can assure you that Uncle Sam didn't want me for my brains or fine sense of art appreciation or anything other than my expendable young athletic body.

Was I being exploited?

When I first saw this cover, at first glance I thought it said "Guys are Roses"...

I just read the entire article. What does this quote mean?

“Why would we feel used? We are using them. We don’t pay for shit. We’ve grown up in the bar scene. We don’t give a flying f^(k. [sic]”

NOTE TO READER AND READER READERS: Even though the quote I added from article contained the "offensive" word spelled out, I was admonished as follows"

"Watch your mouth! The words "f--k" are not allowed here."

Hence the modification. Interesting, eh? Especially the TONE of the admonition and the self-righteous implication. Just who should be insulted here? And the grammar! Tsk, tsk.

Twister...I agree. If the article uses a word, that same word should be allowed in the comments too.

What I can't figure out is how to perform the flying f*** maneuver. Anyone got a link to a video of this?

Further, once I figure out how to fly into fornication...can someone tell me how this activity can be "given" to someone else? Then, if it can in fact be given, why are so many so reluctant to do so?


I must be missing something.

smh, ridiculous.

"When I ask if they feel like sex objects, the young women look at me as if I’m stupid."

Those young women seem to have had good reason for doing so.

Hey Fred, Any chance of you posting a photo so us girls can see those good looks you have been smart enough to use to your advantage?


(I expect dozens of comments on how ugly and stupid I am starting in 3, 2, 1...)

Just one question, Fred. OK, 2 actually. When you shoot, what do you pull and have you ever robinhooded?

Tom, when I was young I tried to shoot with as much poundage as possible, thinking it macho.

Nowadays I shoot with very low poundage, and focus more on technique and mental control than weight. After all, I'm not going to be shooting grizzlies. I shoot at pieces of paper. Even more disappointing to my younger self, I don't much care anymore if I bunch all my arrows together. If they stick in the target, I'm fine.

I'm not sure what "robinhooding" is, but guess you're talking about the splitting the arrow thing. Yes. More than once. It's annoying because those arrows are quite expensive. All it means is that the shooter got lucky (or unlucky) or they're too close to the target.

Well, technically it's not splitting the arrow. It's driving the tip of one arrow thru the nock and into the shaft of another arrow, in the bullseye,without splitting it. I used to shoot on occassion with a guy named Frank Pearson, a pretty good archer. He had a triple robinhood. I haven't shot in years. I used to go bow hunting with my dad and granddad many years ago. I used to target shoot out at a place around Corona years ago, or maybe it was Chino. Been so long I don't even remember. Nice thing about targets is you don't have to track them down and pack them out after you shoot them.

While you still have the chance, borrow a bow and go shoot the field range under the bridge at Balboa Park. It's run by the San Diego Archers, and it's amazing.

The Jacobs by-pass bridge will destroy this. Do it before it's gone forever.

(P.s. another advantage of target archery...you can put pictures of politicians on the target face)

I swear-You are nothing like I pictured or imagined, not that that is bad-I just pictured you much older for some reason.......

Well, Sir Fred, I will have to agree that you are quite attractive AND a good sport! I also agree that clothes are very often used as a measure of a man (or woman).......regardless of how accurate that measuring stick might be.

Catbird, stop hitting on Fred........... he is married.

Don't listen to SurfPuppy! Hit on me all you like:

"What 46-year-old doesn’t want girls telling him constantly how handsome he is?”

" I expect dozens of comments on how ugly and stupid I am "

Finally the self righteous Fred has his moment of truth. Those who can't do after all, teach.

Fred and all:

I fully understand the READER's dilemma, I just found it amusing. I do believe that they could be a bit more matter-of-fact in their admonition, however. If they let everybody use #!*&(%[email protected]# in their posts, what little intellectual discipline that does exist would evaporate and their best efforts to stick to the issues and stay away from personalities would be even more undermined than it is. And we have to remember that some of us prefer to remain anonymous. We take responsibility for our comments, enhancing or diminishing our nom de plume as we write. Then there're wide differences in age, education, intelligence, judgment, etc., not to mention stunningly good looks, eh?

Re: Fred_Williams Sept. 4, 2012 @ 3:12 p.m.

Twister...I agree. If the article uses a word, that same word should be allowed in the comments too.

What I can't figure out is how to perform the flying f*** maneuver. Anyone got a link to a video of this?

Further, once I figure out how to fly into fornication...can someone tell me how this activity can be "given" to someone else? Then, if it can in fact be given, why are so many so reluctant to do so?


Fred, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Could you elaborate a little?

In the video? I think the title is wrong (I really ought to go change it). This is just the common pattern for writing a user instruction about software.

Description Warnings Steps Outcome

My goal is to get developers to provide all of this information to their users, because you've all seen a user guide where all you get is either description or steps...and it's not very useful.

I also teach courses on business analysis, requirements specifications, test cases, and software project management. I've been developing software for two decades...it's what I got into after I left San Diego politics in disgust.

Trust me ladies--Williams is drop-dead handsome. Kind of a scrawny Bob Redford.

Fred, I think you both (to some extent) misread my post and misunderstood my meaning. But I think you are simply wrong if you believe that being a manipulator is the way to develop into an integrated human being.

Re: Fred_Williams Sept. 4, 2012 @ 3:08 p.m.

Okay. But I guess you'd have to define manipulator for me to know whether to agree or not.

After all, a baby that cannot manipulate its parents into getting it food and such won't survive. So it's easy to argue that manipulation is one of the many skills/attributes to be integrated in a healthy human.

If you take this piece and broaden the scope of it, it's really simple. We ALL self-exploit to some extent, the limit of which is a moral issue where the lines are drawn differently by all of us. With these girls, you just see it for what it is. I'm not paying an extra dollar for a beer just because it's served by some half-naked chica with over-sized funbags, but if there wasn't a large number of other men who enjoyed that sort of thing then the gals would be doing something else.

And likely, there would be some other reason that many of them would think that men are gross. Which is fine, I'll be sure and contemplate that next time I clean the bathroom and shove aside the fake eyelashes and hair extensions and make-up and feminine hygiene products and so on, as I unclog the toilet because SOMEONE tossed 67 Q-Tips in there because she thought the flusher would magically make them (along with hair, around a half-roll of toilet paper, and other stuff I would rather not mention) disappear.

It could be said that women are also gross. But if we limit the scope of the grossness to sex and how men or women treat and think about other men or women, then some girls are actually still worse than the average guy. I have overheard conversations between girls about guys that made me blush. And that's not an easy accomplishment.

But that's the idea behind these pieces, it makes for an interesting read but even better when folks discuss it. In a rational manner, of course.

If you take this piece and broaden the scope of it, it's really simple. We ALL self-exploit to some extent, the limit of which is a moral issue where the lines are drawn differently by all of us.

Those two sentences sums up the argument very well. We all use sex to get what we want in some degree, the question is where do we draw the morality line, it is different for all of us. For some we use sex to get attention from those we want for romantic purposes, for others they use sex to get $$ selling hot wings and cokes and some use sex acts to get cold hard $$$$$. The only difference is the degree we use it and that is a morality line we all draw, we just draw it in different places and should not judge others on where they draw their line.

Fred, I suspect that is one of those endless discussions that amounts to defining how many angels can dance on the point of a pin. Tomato-tomater. One is "correct" and the other is "wrong," but they both mean the same thing.

At the one extreme you have a baby "manipulating" it's mother for milk; on the other you have a borderline personality who insinuates his or her victim with fawning praise only to stick it to them once they've secured the poor gullible sap's confidence or is fully invested in the fantasy the manipulator is selling.

Could there be something like a straw-baby?

Re: Fred_Williams Sept. 5, 2012 @ 11:11 p.m.

Okay. But I guess you'd have to define manipulator for me to know whether to agree or not.

After all, a baby that cannot manipulate its parents into getting it food and such won't survive. So it's easy to argue that manipulation is one of the many skills/attributes to be integrated in a healthy human.

I'll drink to that, but there is a strong tendency for people to discuss inconvenient or uncomfortable subjects because they like to admire their prose. PROSIT! You might say that discussion in a rationale manner is more popular than rational discussion.

What we should be discussing here is the phenomenon, not any individual, group, or even sex. Both sexes manipulate, but the elephant in the room is: What is the result? Is it all good, all bad, or just good when it's working and bad when it's not working or the other way around?

Then there is the question of DEGREES, INTENSITY, and FREQUENCY of manipulation. Finally, is the manipulation false, and is it harmful--to the manipulator and/or the "manipulatee?"

refriedgringo Sept. 6, 2012 @ 12:29 p.m.

. . . But that's the idea behind these pieces, it makes for an interesting read but even better when folks discuss it. In a rational manner, of course. . . .

Not JUDGE, certainly. But not remain silent, and thus be manipulated by some bogus guilt either. That's the other end of my motto (Don't manipulate and don't BE manipulated). Ignore manipulators, don't judge them. Don't proselytize, and don't buy the sermon. Judge for yourself. That's true independence, that's true maturity.

Re: SurfPuppy619 Sept. 6, 2012 @ 3:34 p.m.

I have to own up. I'm so clueless about websites that I first read only the first page, then later the second--finally today I read all four pages. This shows good writing, much like it used to be in the newspaper business. Editors would make pieces fit the space by lopping paragraphs off at the end. So for what it's worth, here are some excerpts from the piece that jumped off the page:

“Why would we feel used? We are using them. We don’t pay for shit. We’ve grown up in the bar scene. We don’t give a flying [f(^k].”

:. . . there’s pressure to work out and stay fit, to appear flawless."

"I know I can’t work here forever.”

"I spend about $400–$500 a month on beauty maintenance for this job.”

"These will get you free shots inside . . ."

“When I ask if they feel like sex objects, the young women look at me as if I’m stupid.” “Of course,” Lacy says. “That’s kind of the point.”

ATTN ADMIN: UI Change request

  1. Move the "Next" and "Previous" buttons so they are at the bottom RIGHT (left is not where we expect to find them).

  2. Increase the button's background color saturation (they're nearly transparent now) so we can see them more quickly. (The same settings as the "Post reply" button should be okay.)

Thank you very much.

I just moved here from somewhere else and based on the picture of those girls, none is especially attractive and I would never consider buying any of those girls drinks. I mean yeah they look kind of good, but what is the conclusion we are supposed to get from the article? Are we supposed to be glad they didn't go for real money and be strippers or are we supposed to be sad because an almost hot girl shouldn't have to do anything but we worshipped?

Lucky you - new in town and given this glimpse into what some ladies who work at or frequent certain SD clubs actually feel about the male patrons.

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